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So, do you believe aliens are visiting the earth?

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Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.01 10:59:00 - [1] Here's one for some insta-brainmelt: Can you logically believe in a creationist theory of existence while disbelieving the existence of other intelligent life in the universe?
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.01 11:22:00 - [2] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 01/09/2007 11:20:01 Originally by: Elliot Reid ôSometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.ö This crop circle was created in pitch black, with no sound whatsoever, while being filmed by night vision cameras by scientists. Its more than a thousand feet wide and seems to have been created in a impossibly short time. Pretty interesting stuff. Edit: Found more youtube stuff on it (and better, since the link above has problems with lip syncing etc): Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Waait... so scientists are getting paid to monitor fields on the off chance that a crop circle will pop up? So where do I go to get this job?
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:18:00 - [3] Finally found it! God, my Search Fu is weak today. Jim, here's something to chew on: Rare Earth hypothesis.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Blacksilk http://blahblahblah I haven't seen this before, although I do recognize Colin Andrews. Colin's approach to his research is probably the most respected in his field - http://www.cropcircle.info/news/maverick.shtml Use Tinyurl.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 05:06:00 - [5] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 03/09/2007 04:22:10 Quote: Can you give me some evidence that it was made up? All religious text was written by man, to control the masses... There is no GOD. All the religions man follows were of his own creation, from his own mind to answer scientific questions where the knowledge for true answers was simply not within reach... Belief systems were required by man to create civilizations, and they are still required today by some. If there is a GOD, he has been very cruel to his creations because religions are the bane of society, causing more pain and suffering throughout history than any other human endeavor. GOD is about as illusive as the UFO's... You cannot prove GOD does or doesn't exist, same as UFO's The reason you cannot prove their exstance without a reasonable doubt, is because they come from within the human mind, in the form of a belief system, not as something physical which can be scientifically proven. UFO's are false, so is GOD... Gratz, you've stated your opinion. Now go out get some facts, and come back. We'll be waiting with bated breath. Jim, as to our previous discussion: the Rare Earth hypothesis isn't all inclusive. It, in conjunction with the Drake equation, simply gives a pretty good rough estimation of the number of Terra-like planets which would be capable of producing and sustaining Terra-like lifeforms, and the odds of one of these planets giving rise to intelligent life. Throw the Fermi paradox into the mix, and you've got a pretty compelling argument that there is no other advanced intelligent race in our little slice o' sky. Of course, this doesn't rule out uncommunicative intelligent beings, intelligent beings who don't possess the technology level to communicate or realize we're communicating, or spacefaring intelligent races so utterly foreign that we don't recognize them. As to UFOs, you yourself stated that the collective human intelligence regarding "fact" is revised constantly. Once our ignorance is taken as a given, applying Occam's Razor to the whole UFO debacle seems to validate the assumption that most UFO sightings are simple physical manifestations of natural occurrences that we don't understand or are measuring incorrectly. Someone also mentioned earlier that a government or governments covering up some sort of advanced technology is completely far-fetched. I beg to differ. What if the US governments tripped across some sort of incredible technological breakthrough almost entirely by accident, and that the conditions for this technology to operate are so exotic as to be nearly impossible to recreate unintentionally? Like, for instance, the manipulation of gravity. What if the equipment requires helical iridium rods custom-forged with a 1 tW laser in a vacuum? This removes the "monkeys at typewriters" argument, IE that someone would discover the same technology independently. Once said government realized what they'd stumbled across and how utterly unrealistic it was that anyone else would develop this same technology, they'd put it in a lab so secure that it would make Los Alamos look public domain. It may be somewhat unbelievable, but it's far from impossible.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 09:00:00 - [6] Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: Gratz, you've stated your opinion. Now go out get some facts, and come back. We'll be waiting with bated breath. Facts? That facts are pretentious ppl like you pretend that there are actually facts when you're discussing aliens & GOD. I'm sorry, but it's all fabrication from the human mind. Hardly worth the labeling as facts... A belief system has nothing to do with facts... Come back here with true forensic & scientific FACTS about the existence of GOD and extraterrestrials, and then we'll talk. Until then, please don't hold your breath, I'd hate to see you meet your maker... Facts. You were asked for evidence that "it" (choose either god(s) or UFOs) was made up. You then promptly replied with several opinions. Opinion =/= fact. So now, I ask again: provide us with some facts regarding how the Bible, Qur'an, Talmud/Torah, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Kangyur, and/or Tao-te-ching are "made up". And do so without resorting to ad-hominem attacks on me. Good luck.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 10:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Cornucopian NO, provide ME with FACTS they are TRUE! lol! we can keep this up all day! And the one where you go 'it was written' doesnt work. Also, according to the bible, some charachters have extreeeeeemely long lifespans. Seems a little weird... Seriously though, give me proof of the divine. really, try. You are welcome to your beliefs. And now you've fallen into my trap. I can provide empirical evidence that several of the above books contain fact. I never claimed that the above religious texts are 100% factually accurate. But DarkMatter did make claims that they were 100% made up. Thusly why I called him out.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 11:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Cornucopian yeah. ok. true enough: there is a nazareth, the red sea exists, the romans did. whats your point? that the bible was written over a long period, incorporating the events of the time into a nicely woven bestseller for people to donate to? I don't see the point in your trap: it seems like an extremely sad nitpick. Boo on you for sidestepping what could have become the most awesome religion bashing thread! Yeah, but religious flamefest threads are just circle-jerks. "My invisible sky monster is real!" "No, MY invisible sky monster is real!" "There's an invisible sky monster, but neither of you are right!" "Nuh uh! THERE IS NO INVISIBLE SKY MONSTER!!!" "Y'know who else didn't believe in invisible sky monsters? <That guy who was the leader of the German National Socialist Party>." I was actually enjoying the extraterrestrial intelligent life debate before this turned all religious. I'll take the blame, since I was the first person to mention a higher order being in the thread.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 11:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Fallen Elite "You've activated my Trap Card!" Between the traps, and calling someone out, you've made yourself sound like a fool. Never did he say that all religious texts are 100% made up, if you make everything up noone's going to believe it. If the bible was 100% made up it wouldn't be based on earth, and it certainly wouldn't star humans, no matter how divine. Grow up, and use the tiny portion of your brain devoted to logical conclusions, and deductive reasoning. Originally by: DarkMatter I'm sorry, but it's all fabrication from the human mind. All the religions man follows were of his own creation, from his own mind to answer scientific questions where the knowledge for true answers was simply not within reach. Sounds to me like, "Religious texts are entirely fictitious." What you're looking for is, "Religious texts are historical fiction." You've tried to change the argument. Oh, and this thread's about the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligent life, more specifically advanced spacefaring extraterrestrial life.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.03 11:57:00 - [10] Originally by: DarkMatter You know what I meant, and your bit of trickery with the texts maybe containing a bit of historical fact does not change the argument... The premise of the texts, the religion of the texts, the deities are man-made. I believe that there is a higher-order being, and I have no evidence for this save anecdotes. You believe that there is no higher-order being, and you have no evidence because it's impossible to prove a negative. Can we just agree that until there is factual evidence one way or the other that we're both simply speaking from positions of opinion? Originally by: DarkMatter Of course it is. And the followers of UFOlogy, are quite similar in nature to those who follow religions. Both following a man-made belief system. Neither of which can be scientifically proven, because they don't exist. There is no harm in drawing a parallel between the two groups of misguided humans... And there you go again. Can't be proven because YOU BELIEVE they don't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Although I do agree, quite a few "UFO believers" are downright religious.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.07 04:28:00 - [11] I come back, and the thread's gone off in the direction of the Illuminati and the New World Order... That's it, I'm whoring this forum 24/7 from now on.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 07:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Jim McGregor I said directly interfere. Just think about it. If there is such things as aliens and alien civilizations, there will be rules for first contact. Why do you assume this? An alien civilization would be just that: ALIEN. There's no way to extrapolate their sociology using human behavior as a sample set.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 07:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Jim McGregor It just seems logical me to that you dont interfere with whatever civilization you encounter in space. You could easily create accidental wars, changes in their belief system, history, technology and so on, which could have a negative impact on their civilization, specially if you are more advanced than they are. And? A space-faring civilization could just as easily be motivated by raping and pillaging all they lay <insert sensory input device here> on as they could by peaceable pursuits. Or they could take umbrage to our wanton usury of their photosynthetic brothers and sisters and be compelled to genocide. Or they could just do it to xenoform Terra to something more acceptable to their tastes, not considering homo sapiens to be truly sentient beings. Again, you're taking something that you have absolutely no knowledge of and applying characteristics on it based upon the way certain groups of humans behave.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 08:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Amarria Black Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor, Occam's Razor. Why haven't the happy spacefaring aliens revealed themselves to the public at-large? Or why haven't the evil spacefaring aliens shown up and randomly started shooting things? They're not there. Well, judging from cave paintings, statues and so on, they have done so a number of times in our history. And as for evil spacefaring aliens shooting stuff...why would they want to kill a civilization? It makes no sense at all. Again, why not??? Because their holy book says so. Because carbon based life forms are considered unclean. Because our very attempt at measuring space collapses enough eigenstates to threaten their very existence. Because they don't even realize they're doing it. So far, you've extrapolated the behavior of multiple races of beings we still can't say even exist in the first place, and doing so based upon observations of human sociology. You can't assume anything about a xenobiological creature. Again, Occam's Razor. What's the simplest reason why spacefaring intelligent extraterrestrial creatures would not contact the human race at-large?
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:26:00 - [15] Jim, you ducked my question. What's the simplest reason why spacefaring intelligent extraterrestrial creatures would not contact the human race at-large? And as to your comment that they're credible sources: they're making up societies between creatures they can't even prove exist in the first place. That ruins their credibility right there as anything other than a science fiction writer.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Post 351 and so on... doesnt that answer that question? No, because you didn't answer the question posed. What is the simplest reason?
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Jim McGregor That they dont exist? Precisely. And applying Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is the most statistically likely to be correct. Thusly, the reason that everyone and their second cousin doesn't detect aliens flitting about their near universe is that more than likely, they ain't there.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Jim McGregor Ok. Thats your opinion, and thats fine. :) No, it's not my opinion, it's the most statistically likely scenario. My opinion is that there is probably intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, quite possibly in our timeframe, but that there's no spacefaring intelligent life in our observable vicinity. Or that if there is, it's hiding very well, and if it has any clue what humans represent, it's waiting to sterilize Terra as soon as we get any sort of meaningful interstellar travel. ^_^

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